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Corbyn’s pro-Palestine stance may prove to be costly

Image of Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn [file photo]
Image of Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn [file photo]

Although nobody in the Labour Party wants to admit it, this election will be the first firm reminder that Britain’s Jewish voters may be about to desert the party that, on the whole, has been their traditional home since before the Second World War. Of course, there have always been Conservative Jews just as there will be Socialist Jews in Corbyn’s new party, but it is clear that his pro-Palestine stance has already alienated much of Anglo-Jewry, and will probably continue to do so.

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When Sir Mick Davis, Chairman of the Jewish Leadership Council (JLC), told the Parliamentary Home Affairs Committee in July last year that, “if you attack Zionism, you attack the very fundamentals of how the Jews believe in themselves,” there was nothing particularly wrong or unusual about his claim. “Zionism is,” after all, “so totally identified with how the Jew thinks of himself, and is so associated with the right of the Jewish people to have their own country and to have self-determination within that country.” Fair enough, but it must also be said that while British Jews identify with Israel, British Muslims identify with Palestine and British Christians identify with Christians persecuted across the Middle East; so too do socialists identify with their political bedfellows around the world, and communists likewise, and so on.

To Davis’s statement, though, we must add a disclaimer that not all British Jews think his way. Groups like the JLC are notorious for imposing their own staunchly pro-Israel stance on other British Jews. A liberal Jewish friend of mine from Manchester, who is involved heavily with his local community, described the organisation to me recently as “thought police”; the JLC has, he claimed, stamped out any public dissent about support for Israel’s Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. The statistics suggest that my friend is right, but with one caveat – casting doubt on the efficacy of JLC “thought policing.” Between 2010 and 2015, the Institute for Jewish Policy Research and IPSOS Mori found that the number of self-described “Zionist” Jews appeared to have fallen from 72 per cent to about 59 per cent of Britain’s Jewish community.

Read: Major faults with UK government-endorsed ‘anti-semitism definition’

Davis — who is also known as “Mick the Miner” — is also far from impartial. Aside from his ore-based (but troubled) business empire, he is also the Conservative Party Treasurer, a party which was sceptical about Israel when it was founded in 1948 and continued to be so inclined until Margaret Thatcher became the first serving British Prime Minister to visit Israel in 1983; she was the MP for the old constituency of Finchley in north London, which had a sizeable Jewish electorate. Thatcher left her indelible mark on the party, particularly her sycophantic brand of Atlanticism which pushed the Conservatives away from their natural allies in the US Democrats, and more towards the crass Republicans, whose overt displays of patriotism, faith and free market extremism were antithetical to traditional, countryside Conservatism.

The famous Reagan-Thatcher friendship came at a time when the US Republicans had been infiltrated by neoconservatives, previously allied to the Democrats. It was these neoconservatives — many of whom were the children and grandchildren of Jewish refugees who fled from Bolshevik and Nazi terror — who convinced the Republicans to stop being anti-Semitic and start being pro-Israel. This phenomenon percolated across the pond to London, and soon the Conservatives — whose views about Jews were generally anti-Semitic — went one step further; Israel joined Saudi Arabia at the centre of their Middle East foreign policy.

British Jews were rightly sceptical and less than convinced that the Conservative Party was their natural political home, given its general reputation for racism. Major Jewish financiers —working class entrepreneurs such as Sir Emmanuel Kaye, Sir Trevor Chinn and Lord Michael Levy — all backed former Labour Party leader Tony Blair. Combined with his own personal support for the Zionist state, in turn he kept his party on the pro-Israel course.

Image of Michael Foster [Patrick Haseldine/Wikipedia]

Image of Michael Foster [Patrick Haseldine/Wikipedia]

Twenty years after Blair took office as Prime Minister in an electoral landslide, the Labour Party is now left with a conundrum. The antithesis of Blair is now leading the party, in Jeremy Corbyn. Owing to the fantastic talents of largely working class London and Manchester Jews, Labour’s coffers should have continued to swell. Although many of Corbyn’s top team are Jews, his ardent pro-Palestine stance has seen many donations from the better-off sections of the Jewish community heading towards the Conservatives, or being left in bank accounts around the country.

Michael Foster, the entertainment industry agent who may run against Corbyn in the upcoming General Election, already claims that Jewish donors he knows “have not given Labour a penny under Corbyn.” Foster has given £400,000 to the party over the years, but not since Corbyn became leader. He lost eight relations in the Holocaust, and his grandfather was held in Dachau concentration camp. Those who impugn him as a cynical agent of the Israeli state ignore the fact that many Jews in Britain support Israel because of their familial experiences, not because of orders from the embassy in London.

Corbyn is likely to lose this election, for a number of reasons that are not worth elucidating here. He will do better than his naysayers predict, I think, but he will still lose. There is then likely to be yet another Labour leadership contest, and if his successor turns out to be deputy leader Tom Watson, it will be interesting to see who is backing him. Trevor Chinn, for example, confounds Foster’s theory that British Jews have stopped donating to Labour; the entrepreneur and philanthropist is one who has stuck by the party, and is a Watson fan.

Of the £49,500 given to Corbyn’s deputy since he was elected, £25,000 has come from Chinn; a further £4,500 in kind came from Labour Friends of Israel. When Watson was the guest of honour at the most recent Labour Friends of Israel dinner, Chinn was thanked personally during his speech, and described as his “friend and mentor”. The men are said to know each other reasonably well, but these donations are the first that Chinn has ever made to Watson’s various political activities.

Read: The UK is quietly changing its policy on Israel and Palestine

Chinn’s relationship with New Labour dates back to the Blair years; he was amongst those whom Lord Levy, introduced to Blair by an Israeli diplomat, convinced to fund the young MP’s initial pitch for the leadership role. Read the speech and you’ll see that Levy was also thanked by Watson for his support. Both men are prominent supporters of Israel.

This may seem like something lifted from a conspiracy theory; it isn’t. This is merely how politics works; a confluence of personal beliefs, commercial interests, geopolitical concerns and money, with foreign countries involved on occasion. It is one of the reasons why Britain’s trade unions have enjoyed political influence for so long even though their “collective bargaining” is irrelevant in most of today’s workplaces, and why the City is so under-regulated. It is also why the Saudis, Emiratis, Bahrainis, Palestinians and many other foreign states try to garner the same amount of influence at Westminster.

Furthermore, we should all understand why Jewish support for Israel is not discussed in the mainstream media in Britain; to do so would border on the kind of anti-Semitism in the thirties that led ultimately to the Holocaust, and then Israel being founded. Nevertheless, as Corbyn is about to find out, British Jews play an important and influential role in public life, and the views of their leadership organisations matter, particularly when it comes to Israel. When Corbyn loses the election — and probably his position as Labour leader — at least part of the reason will be his pro-Palestine stance. His support for the Palestinians may well prove to be very costly, for him and his party.

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  • Fasdunkle

    He isn’t pro-palestine, he is anti-west and is willing to align himself with any other anti-westerners no matter what fascism and tyranny they support. Let’s face it, if the Ottomans were still the colonial masters there he would be cheering them on.

    • Selina Whiteley

      Corbyn has a long history of supporting Palestine. However, if you mean that Corbyn does not support the far right bigotry of people like Trump you are right. Nor does he support tax breaks for wealthy Brits at the expense of the poor.

      • Fasdunkle

        Corbyn has worked for and supports the far right regime in Tehran. Trump is positively liberal compared to some of the regimes and orgs Corbyn supports

  • Michael Abramov

    What a great article. Corbyn is an idealist. I do not think for one minute that he is an anti-Semite, but he is incredibly gullible and naive. Having said that, he will be useless as a PM so the catalogue of shortfalls listed in this article merely reiterates the inevitable and that is, Corbyn will lose.

    • John the Savage

      Trouble is, it is practically heresy to say he is not an anti-Semite or that you are Jewish and support him. In fact, most Jews who do are already heretics in that they often are the least connected to Jewish communities. The organized campaign by mainstream British Jewry against him already has severe consequences for the fight against anti-Semitism and for retention of future generations to the causes of the previous generations. Modern Jews do not need Zionism, and will increasingly see loyalty to it as an unnecessary and unwanted burden on their identities.

      • Helen4Yemen

        1- Over 90% of Jewish Israelis say Gaza op justified ~ Timesofisrael
        2- A survey by the Israel Democracy Institute found that 95 percent of Israeli Jews think the operation in Gaza is just, ~ Washingtonpost
        3- Israeli polls show overwhelming support for Gaza campaign ~ The Guardian
        4- 95 percent of Jewish Israelis support the Gaza war ~ Vox
        5- Poll: Overwhelming Majority of Jewish Israelis Say Gaza Op Justified ~ Haaretz
        6- Poll: 90% of Israeli Jews believe Gaza operation is justified ~ Ynetnews
        7- IsraeI: Poll Shows Almost Unanimous Support for Military Op in Gaza ~ Breitbart
        8- According to a new Gallup Poll released on August 1, when asked about the Gaza War, 93% of American Jews said they sympathize with Israel ~ Algemeiner
        9- ADL Survey Shows American Jews Overwhelmingly Supported Israel’s Gaza Action ~ ADL

      • Mike Abramov

        John the Savage – I enjoy our repartee because you give me intelligent and challenging questions.

        May I firstly add the following:

        1. There are Jews who are Zionists (Me).
        2. There are Jews who are just Jews.
        3. There are Jews who are anti-Zionist.

        I have been in the same room as Corbyn for over 1 hour and what you confuse as ‘anti-Semitism’ is really anti-Capitalism. Corbyn is so incredibly sold on the ‘underdog must be right’ concept,that at a Labour Friends for Israel’ meeting his speech contained no more then 4 references to Israel but 13 references to Palestine. His main problem with Israel is that it is a capitalist state with an underlying minority that wants their own state…..just like N. Ireland in the 1970s.

        Modern Jews do need Zionism and always will need Zionism. Israel is the ONLY country in the world that has open doors to Jews fleeing persecution.

        Israel is also the top of the list for the refugees from Sudan and Eritrea. Israel has also taken in 50 orphaned Syrian children and judging by the 1930s when even Albert Einstein had trouble getting an exit visa to the USA from Germany, Israel is an essential component of normality in a war-ridden Middle East and N. Africa.

        In a nutshell, when Palestine becomes a sovereignty, there will follow a civil war between the Sunni Hamas and Shia PA. The Corbynites will blame Israel

        • John the Savage

          Thanks, Mike, I’ve been finding it really hard to have a decent online discussion without things degenerating into insults, I myself try not to use insults, but sometimes it’s hard not to get sucked in and I hope I personally haven’t been too overboard.

          The issue with Corbyn, Israel, and anti-Semitism goes far beyond Corbyn’s own ideology. As far as he is concerned, there appears to be a lot of mess and covfefe (my new favourite word!) about his actual words so I think we need to take him at face value: anti-Semitism is wrong, all violence is wrong, and he/Labour supports a two-state solution with Israel and Palestine both in secure and mutually agreed borders. The wider issue which bothers me is the constant smearing by elements of the media (shall I name them? To quote Rabbi Nissim of Baghdad, “impossible to enumerate them for they are many”) which distracts from actual discussion of Labour politics in the Jewish community. Compounding this problem is the fact that too many Labour MP’s and candidates, rather than engaging in the issue of Corbyn’s and his supporters’ views and in the actual situation, just badmouth him, in some cases undermining themselves as well as the election campaign. And while I could discuss the politics of Labour v Conservative, this is beyond the scope of this response.

          I believe that Israel is not a safe haven for Jews, and the problems caused from the initial founding of the Zionist movement can not be resolved. Neither do I believe that the world should provide Jews with a safe haven from persecution when it will not offer one to anyone else. As a Jew it makes me uncomfortable to be treated with double standards.

          Neither can Israel’s sins be forgiven with small acts of kindness. A plaster will not heal a broken arm. Israel has been told what it must do, but its right-wing government won’t listen or engage, but instead fume, insult, and smear, and in doing so, force everybody who believes in the Jewish people and Jewishness either to become right-wing, generally far-right as well, or instead make the present state less relevant to their Jewish identity.

          Of course, what the Palestinians will do to each other after Israel has obeyed the international community is irrelevant.

          • Mike Abramov

            John – Well, you have given this a lot of thought.

            Basically, Corbyn is a good man, but he is not PM material. He will be given a hard time at PMs question time. However, that is his problem

            I will address the main point in par. 3.

            If Israel existed before 1939, millions of Jews would not have perished. The USA, Argentina and Great Britain are just some of the countries that refused to take shiploads of fleeing German Jews. England was interesting. Neville Chamberlain is noted for saying that; ‘He did not like Jews, but he felt sorry for the children’. However, £50.00 (today about £2,200) was the fee to ‘export your child from Austria or Germany to safety in England. Hence the Kindertransport.

            Israel’s sins? There are always 2 sides to a story. You appear to have listed the sins that Israel has committed. As for the Palestinians, the ruck-sack bomber in the cafe in Jerusalem which, the nearly 480 people that died during the suicide bombing spree before the wall was built, the Black September and the murder of the 13 Israeli athletes. the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine who hijacked the Air France plane and flew it to Entebbe in 1976. Finally, let us not forget the incessant shelling of Sderot in Southern Israel by Islamic Jihad where children were being blinded and losing limbs by the indiscriminate shelling.

            The biggest sin Israel committed was not to return the West Bank after 1967.

            ‘Of course, what the Palestinians will do to each other after Israel has obeyed the international community is irrelevant’.

            The final point you made surprises me. Do you not care that Arabs will be fighting Arabs. Women and children will die, there will be violence on a massive scale and the Arab world would then be blaming us Jews? That is you and I.

          • Helen4Yemen

            95% of world Jewry is European Ashkenazi who are totally
            of European ancestry. Why must Arab land be used for
            Europeans to erect their state? Does Europe not have enough
            land for its own people?

          • Mike Abramov

            Absolute rubbish!

          • Helen4Yemen

            “The Ashkenazi Jews, which represent 95% of all Jews, are susceptible to some severe and profoundly debilitating genetic diseases.” https://richardedmondson*net/2014/01/19/are-the-jews-crazy/

          • Mike Abramov

            You are absolutely wrong. The Ashkenazim do not represent 95% of Jews. Go away and do your research properly. Anyway, who cares if one is Ashkenazi or Sephardi. One is either a good person…or a bad person.

          • Helen4Yemen

            The leeches did claim to be “returning”, did they not?

            What are the chances any Ashkenazi has genetic ties to Abraham?
            It is most certainly 0%, is it not?

          • Helen4Yemen

            Ashkenazi Jews and their U.S.-born descendants, making up about 90% of the American Jewish population. https://www*jewishvirtuallibrary*org/jsource/Judaism/Ashkenazim*html
            Ashkenazi Jews represent more than 90% of the 6 million Jews in the United States and Canada. http://jnci*oxfordjournals*org/content/91/14/1241*full*pdf
            In Britain, it is estimated that 90%95% of Jewish people are of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. http://www*jewishgeneticdisordersuk*org/index*php?/jewish_genetic_disorders/ashkenazi_disorders
            the Ashkenazi Jews, which represent 95% of all Jews, are susceptible to some severe and profoundly debilitating genetic diseases https://richardedmondson*net/2014/01/19/are-the-jews-crazy/

          • Helen4Yemen

            DNA has confirmed that the Ashkenazi have no trace of Middle East ancestry, zero, zilch!

            Name………………………. European……. Middle Eastern
            1) Alex Feinberg…………… 99.8% …………… 0%
            2) Dershowitz DNA………. 99.9% …………….0%
            3) Rabbi Hammerman…,,, 99.9% …………… 0%
            4) Tony Kushner…………… 99.9% …………….0%
            5) Joseph Cohen………….. 99.8% …………… 0%
            6) Bill Maher…………………..99.9% ……………..0%
            7) Neil Gaiman……………… 99.9% …………… .0%
            8) Jill Sobule………….. …….99.9% ……………..0%
            9) Alisa R Doctoroff…….. ..98.0% …………….. 0%
            10) A.J. Jacobs………………99.9% ……………. 0%

            Source:

            https://disqus*com/home/channel/semite/discussion/channel-semite/stunning_ashkenazi_dna/

          • Mike Abramov

            ….and your point is?

          • Helen4Yemen

            Ashkenazi and the Eskimos are at exactly the same level of Middle East ancestry, 0% for both. Why did the Ashkenazi claim the land and not the Eskimois? The point is that Palestine is not your grandmother’s land, is it?

          • Helen4Yemen

            Palestine is not “Israel”, it is not “the West Bank”, it is not “Gaza”.
            It is that total area where the Palestinian lived before the Ashkenazi
            inserted himself where he was not wanted or welcome. Tell me again
            how the Ashkenazi feels entitled to Arab land? Is it his grandmother’s
            land

          • Mike Abramov

            You amaze me. You make constant unfounded declarations about a subject that you base totally on opinion and not fact.

            The name Palestine/Palestina/Philistina was from 70 A.C.E
            Gaza goes back to the Egyptian Empire.
            The West Bank simply means west of the River Jordan.

            There was never a ‘Palestinian’ before 1923 A British army office was the man who designed the flag of Palestine.

            Prior to 1914, the Ottomans ruled your ‘land’ and you Arabs did nothing about it even though they turned the land of milk and honey in to a desert in order to build the Ottoman Empire. This is why when the Jews started arriving in numbers in the 1920s and 30s, the first project was to plant trees in order to bring equilibrium to the wreched land.

          • Helen4Yemen

            Why do “the Jews” plant trees on stolen land? Is it their grandmother’s land?

            Neil Gaiman:

            “According to 23andme, genetically I am
            99.6% Ashkenazi,
            0.3% unspecified European,
            0.1% East Asian. ”
            Total European = 99.9%
            Total Middle East = 0.0%

            https://twitter*com/neilhimself/status/278035051210498048 replace * with .

          • Mike Abramov

            The Jews plant trees because the Arab population did not. The land was not stolen. It is technically not possible to steal land. It is either bought, inherited or won in a war.

            Any more stupid questions?

          • Helen4Yemen

            1) Goddamned leeches from Europe owned 0.1% of Palestine in 1881 when the leeches first arrived.

            2) How do snow-white Europeans inherit land that is not in Europe? You mean inherited the 0.1%?

            3)Won in a war? This is like the war between the French and the Algerians? Had the French won, Algeria would be theirs? The war was between snow-white leeches from Poland, Lithuania … and the natives.

            4) How on earth can you claim a land where DNA has confirmed you have ZERO % ties to it – goddamned foreign leeches!

            Neil Gaiman:

            “According to 23andme, genetically I am
            99.6% Ashkenazi,
            0.3% unspecified European,
            0.1% East Asian. ”
            Total European = 99.9%
            Total Middle East = 0.0%
            https://twitter*com/neilhimself/status/278035051210498048
            replace * with .

          • John the Savage

            I am not certain that had the Jews of Europe all been living in the Middle East would have prevent the Holocaust. Of course, in hindsight we know that the Nazi’s did not capture Palestine, though they were close to doing so, but we can’t possibly know whether an independent Jewish state would have held its own against the Nazis. Chances are it would not have, if the Nazis would have concentrated their efforts on destroying it.

            I recognize the crimes of the Palestinian armed groups and their political movements against civilians, whether, Jewish, Israeli or Palestinian. As there are rules about these things, we cannot condone terror and murder, even if committed as resistance against brutal occupation as opposed to in support of it. However as Jews, and as humans who want what is best for everybody, we must focus on what is within our spheres of influence, and that is the mindset and actions of those who claim to represent us.

            And again, as humans we do care about bloodshed in the Middle East, as we do everywhere. But I think we should not say, “they will blame the Jews” as if a) that is a fact and b) it should influence our approach to doing what is just and correct.

          • Mike Abramov

            John – Thank yo for your reply.

            As an amateur historian, I can state that Hitler wanted Europe ‘Judernfrei’. it is possible that Hitler wanted a ‘Judenfrei wald’ as well because Jews from as far south as Greece were murdered in the camps too.

            The Nazi connection with Palestine was through the the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin Al Husseini. He visited Berlin on a number of occasions to halt the fleeing of Jews to Palestine in order to keep Jews out of Palestine. After the war, he was exiled to Lebanon. He died in Beirut in 1974.

            My points earlier about the blockade of progress caused by the intransigence of Abbas and Haniya this week has been proven again with a statement by Nethanyahu that if Hamas leave Gaza, Israel will re-build Gaza for the people of Gaza. This tallies totally with my view that Israel does not have a problem with Palestinians, but with their leaders.

          • John the Savage

            We know from Mein Kampf what Hitler thought about Jews, but we cannot deal with hypothetical situations. In modern times, the possibility of a rogue regime discharging a number of nuclear weapons over a Jewish State killing off every Jew in the world cannot be discounted.

            The pro-Nazism of Husseini is well known, though Netanyahu was wrong to claim that he gave Hitler the idea of the Holocaust. Netanyahu’s attempt to blame the Holocaust on the Arabs rather than the Nazis IMO was far worse than Livingstone’s attempt to credit Hitler with Zionism.

            And I’m not certain we can take Netanyahu’s statement all that seriously. This is a man who does not believe there should be a Palestinian State (link will be moderated) and believes he is defending Europe from the Islamist hordes. I think he is as duplicitous and self-serving as any Palestinian leader has been.

          • Mike Abramov

            Good answer John.

            Although Nethanyahu is highly intelligent, his policies do not help the intransigence of the peace talks. On the other hand, Hamas wants the annihilation of the Jewish State and Abbas keeps changing the goal posts.

            You may be one of those Jews who is against the Zionist State, but what would help is if your proffered a solution.

            I await your reply.

          • John the Savage

            Thank you, Mike. There are several issues here which I am trying to address: a) What should Israel do; b) Who can Israel co-operate with in the Palestinian community; c) What is the alternative to Zionism.

            a) Israel must obey and co-operate with international law and its enforcers. It amazes me when I come across even left-leaning Zionists who fail to understand that international law is not meant as a stick to beat up Israel with. They must recognize the Occupation, the Nakba, and obviously, the existence of the Palestinians as a political entity.

            b) Hamas is a terrorist organization committed to the long-term destruction of the State of Israel. Unless there is any possibility of them compromising on that aim there is no likelihood of them joining the peace talks. But the Palestinians have a number of recognizable leaders both in the ME and abroad who are more than capable of leading the negotiations and eventually an independent Palestine. For example, the Barghouti brothers.

            c) As I have said, I do not believe a Jewish state is morally defensible. As such, we have to fight for the right to live in peace and security everywhere in the world, as full citizens of whichever country we live in. In the UK, as British citizens, in the USA, as American citizens, and hopefully in Arab countries as well, particularly in Palestine, as Palestinian citizens.

          • Mike Abramov

            Good-morning John.

            I will respond to you points in the running order presented.

            a) Much of the ‘law’ you refer to is in itself questionable by interpretation and bias. The UN is constantly under pressure from the OPEC (Arab) countries to pressure Israel in to highly debatable concessions. Consequently, the allegations made by the UN against Israel under various UN resolutions are rhetoric. I agree that the West Bank is an occupation. This does not mean that this is a all negative thing. By have the Israeli military in the West Bank has meant that Hezbollah and ISIS do not dare to attack Israel from such an non-strategic point. This in turn has meant that the Palestinians in the West Bank have been guarded from terrorist groups.

            The Nakba translates as ‘catastrophe’, but was it? From a young age, I have accepted that there exists a national character. The Arabs are romantics and dreamers. Their legacy of poetry and story-telling is symbolic of their romantic attraction to the past. This is why they are unable to move on.

            In 1945, the Jews of Europe were virtually eliminated. Their homes, their families, their livelihoods and their lives were expunged on an industrial scale. 1,000 years of European Jewish history gone in 6 years. So, the survivors got up, brushed themselves down and started all over again. In 1948, the Arabs lost the War of Independence, started by the Arabs. What did the Palestinians do? Marched in to refugee camps and have stayed there ever since….waiting for the key to their houses to be returned.

            b) I cannot see either of the Barghoutis boys negotiating with Israel without the risk of them being assassinated. They would be too liberal for the likes of Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Otherwise, I agree with you. Hamas is a major sticking point. Israel has stated this week that if Hamas got out of Gaza, Israel would re-build Gaza themselves. and install the de-salination plants that Hamas refuse to have.

            c) As for your third point, we are going to vehemently disagree. Every religion, nationality and society have a country, and until 1948, except the Jews. I feel what you are over-looking is the ethos behind the Zionist movement. In the biblical days, Israel, Judea and Sumeria were regions in the Roman empire. Jerusalem was special. Jerusalem is Zion, not Israel. Unless you have been to Jerusalem, it is difficult to explain the spiritual connection that city has with the Jews. However, let’s talk about the politics.

            I take it you are English first and Jewish second. Let us suppose that there was a massive anti-Semitic uprising in England (the last one was 1290 ACE). You had to leave, but no country would take you in. You begin to panic and start arguing that you were loyal to the Queen and proud to be English. However, you are still a Jew. You cannot get an exit visa to seek asylum. You get arrested, put in to a camp and finally die of starvation or typhus. Had there been Israel in 1939 millions of Jews would have survived the horrors of the war. Is political ideology or humanity more important to you?

          • John the Savage

            Good morning.

            Briefly, It is merely deflection to blame the corruption of the UN for any criticism of Israel. There are many organizations, from B’Tzelem to Medecines Sans Frontiers, who have well documented reports of Israeli human rights abuses and war crimes. We all see the pictures and live reports of Israel’s regular “operations” in the Gaza Strip. We can all read about the constant harassment settlers perpetrate on Palestinians. And I could go on. I do not believe that we should close our ears and say, “you’re giving support to our enemies”. We have to face up to what Israel has done in our name since even before 1948 or else the problems that have resulted from them will never be resolved.

            I do not believe that there is an order of English or Jewish first and second. I am equally English and equally Jewish. Sure, there may come a time when Jews are targeted and nobody will give us asylum except for Israel. But can we insist that the world therefore create an Israel, or should we insist that the world give us asylum? Surely an asylum policy is better for everybody who may end up needing it.

          • Mike Abramov

            John – you have got your English and Jewish identity muddled.

            At the dawn of the Nazi era 1933, German Jews often referred to themselves as German first and Jewish second. They prided themselves in serving Germany in WW1 and had pride in their German lineage. In the final outcome, their loyalty to Germany meant nothing and the rest is history. To the non-Jew, you are a Jew first and English second.

            Your standpoint in all this is your left-leaning politics. If you must know, I am neither left or right wing but a mid-fielder. B’Tzelem is famously left-wing. However, one must appreciate in countries like Turkey and Egypt, B’Tzelem would have been shut down by now. Israel is far more free-thinking and tolerant.

            As for MSF, as much as I appreciate their achievements and ideals the accusation that Israel had harvested body organs in Haiti was an unfounded lie. I therefore end by saying that MSF is typical of the underlying anti-Semitism that exists in the 21st C that is both subtle and implicit.

          • John the Savage

            No, Mike, it is the anti-Semite who has English and Jewish identity muddled. Just as I am a man, a worker, a son, a brother, etc., I am a Jew and an Englishman. Different aspects of my identity do mean one must be prioritized for another.

            The fact that other countries are in some ways less democratic than Israel doesn’t make Israel democratic. When Netanyahu – who has massive personal popularity in Israel and indeed is not even the most right-wing mainstream politician there – refuses to meet German ministers because they met with B’Tzelem and BtS, and any politician in any Western country is vilified and branded an anti-Semite for criticizing Israel or taking up a Palestinian cause, when peace activists are beaten or banned from Israel if they are foreign and particularly if they are Muslim, Israel much-vaunted claim to democracy is somewhat compromised.

            I cannot speak about individual claims made against Israel by certain groups. But neither am I quick to claim “underlying anti-Semitism both subtle and implicit”. I appreciate that the average Israel-defender would consider this claim straight-out “anti-Semitic blood libel” but the reality is Israel weren’t in this instance criticized BECAUSE they are Jews as it only to Zionists and anti-Semites that Israel = Jews. Can Israel sometimes claim people lie about them? Maybe. But when they lie about Jews and Judaism they weaken their own credibility.

          • Mike Abramov

            My dear John – You are welcome to meet me over a cup of tea to discuss our differences, if you live in London.

            However, we have got to the point of ‘perspective’.

            Question: If England went to war with Israel, as a soldier, would you fight for Israel, or England?

            As for your next point, Israel has tolerated critics of Israel for years. The PSC member who arrives at Ben-Gurion Airport and immediately takes the bus on to Highway 90, arrives in the West Bank and then listens to a pile of grievances, goes back to England and creates a diatribe of Israel bashing is called democracy or, freedom of choice, freedom of movement and freedom of thought. Is this what you want to change? Do you want to see an end to the only TRUE democracy in the ME? In Iran, Egypt, Yemen and KSA for example, the advocate would be in prison and not on a plane home.

            I have absolutely no problem with Palestinians. I have met enough of them in London and Jerusalem. They treat me a lot better than many PSC members. I have a problem with the PSC, the left-wing, the substitution of the word Jew as Zionist.

            In this PC world, the public cannot say Yid or Jew anymore. They cannot say Jewish conspiracy, but they can say Zionist conspiracy. The blood-libel is alive and well and is in the 21st century disguised as pseudo-political left-wing garbage.

            Communist Russia was smothered in anti-Semitism, but subtly….until 1947 when Stalin instigated the ‘Purge of the Jewish Doctors’.

            Over to you.

          • John the Savage

            Thanks for your offer, Mike, but I don’t live in London.

            I would fight for England, if I couldn’t get out of serving altogether. I abhor war in general, and would hope we are in that situation because it is absolutely necessary AND the justice in this situation is OVERWHELMINGLY with England. Obviously in the case when Israel is overwhelmingly in the right, to the point that bloodshed is necessary, I would like to think I would fight for what is right.

            As to your point about democracy, there are many forms of punishment besides for prison. Activists for the Palestinian cause are often beaten and tear-gassed in Israel/Palestine, and vilified as “worse than Kapos” or “self-haters” abroad.

            Are some supposed Leftists anti-Semitic? It would appear so. Could the concept of “Zionist conspiracy” be a substitute for “Jewish conspiracy”? Yes, but not necessarily. The anti-Semitism question is – are you prejudiced against me, a man you haven’t met, because I self-identify (important for people like Helen4Yemen!) as Jewish? If the answer is yes, you are an anti-Semite.

            I am not certain of the relevance of the Russian Doctors Plot this discussion.

          • Mike Abramov

            Thanks for your reply

            ‘I would fight for England,’

            I guess we might be similar ages, but FYI, I am 64. The reason why I bring age in to the conversation is because in WW2, all the Germans and Italians in GB were immediately catergorised as aliens and taken to the Isle of Man and incarcerated. As you are a Jew, if England went to war with Israel, you too would be an alien.. Otherwise, your loyalty to England in such a situation is, respectfully naive.age has taught me that

            However, my breakdown of international Jewry remains accurate as follows:

            1.Jews who are Zionist
            2. Jews who are just Jews and A political
            3. Jews who are anti-Zionist like…..

            Tony Greenstein, Richard Falk, and Shlomo Sand all of whom are vehemently left-wing which is why I mentioned the 1947 Purge of the Jewish Doctors. A racist action in the left-wing state.of the USSR.

            So, we come to your second point. The comparison I always make is with the situation in N.Ireland 1968 to 1992. There are some remarkable similarities. A wall was built in Belfast to separate the minority Catholics form the majority ‘Prossies’.Catholic kids threw stones at the army and police, The police and army responded with rubber bullets and tear-gas. The violence meted out by the IRA was horrendous ‘in the cause of a united Ireland’. Knee cappings, being tarred and feathered, and of course being murdered. In the eyes of the IRA, this was acceptable in the fight against the colonial British.

            Israel does not have a death penalty. I believe this is to be the only ME country that has no capital punishment. However, this has meant that many Palestinians have behaved, in the name of freedom- fighters, horrendously. Murders, bombings, and before the building of the wall, hundreds of suicide bombings. What would you prefer. To suffer tear gas used by Israel or, to have your guts machetted by an angry Arab? This is what Israel has to manage because the Arabs do not want a Jewish state in the ME….pure and simple.

            Your final point quite amused me. I have heard ‘Yahud’ mumbled at meetings. I have heard Judaise at meetings, Ben White’s favourite word, and Zionist substituted for Jew.

            Of course I do not have an issue with you or your politics. You have been a great help in creating a rational discussion free of insults, accusations and basically BS….unlike our mutual correspondent Helen4Yemen.

            In my experience, yes there is a steadfast belief that the Jews/Zionists run the world but, if there was a massive anti-Semitic uprising in the UK, you and I, as Jews, would be going to the same extermination camp…..despite our political differences.

          • John the Savage

            I suppose my age – I am 31 – may have a lot to do with my beliefs on what would happen during a potential war. But I do believe that the government would – particularly if it is a left-wing government – would approach this war differently to WW2.

            Of course, the most important anti-Zionists are leftists, which is understandable, because the ideology of Zionism completely opposes leftism. But that doesn’t mean that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic any more than opposition to Islamic radicalism is Islamophobic.

            The similarities with NI would suggest that a negotiated solution is possible, even with the more abhorrent terrorist groups being involved in a solution, as we have seen when even Sinn Fein and the DUP have been able to work together since the Good Friday accords. I presume people like JC, who worked with the IRA as well as Hamas/Hizbullah, felt the same thing was possible in Israel/Palestine.

            Palestinian resistance is not strengthened by Israel’s lack of a death penalty. For one thing, Israel has a very effective death penalty for Palestinian resistors.

            Finally, a just cause is worth fighting for regardless of who supports or opposes it, and an unjust cause is worth fighting against regardless of who supports or opposes it.

          • Mike Abramov

            John – I wish I could have a sensible dialogue with everyone on this sight, but alas.

            As a Zionist, I have to manage the current policies of Nethanyahu with my love of Israel. Politically, I have always been a balanced person so I can see through the veil of a politician’s rhetoric what ever leaning they are. In the case of the current government, the pressure that Nethanyahu is under is from the extreme right.

            What I must make clear however is that left-wing politics is full of wonderful ideals where reality makes those ideals unattainable. It is the left-wing that is supporting the right-wing nationalism of the PA and Hamas. Unless Hamas and the PA agree to drop their differences (Sunni -v- Shia) the intransigence will continue and i will tell you why.

            Hamas want the total annihilation of Israel. The PA want the borders to revert to pre-1967. At some point in the future, there will be a 2 – state solution. When that happens, Hamas will infiltrate the PA and cause internal strife by trying to bully the PA in to a coalition. This may well result in a war.

            Let me make it clear, I do not want the left-wing blaming Israel for the in-fighting that may ensue from the 2 – state solution because that will be the ultimate proof that the left are as racist as the right..

            Finally, left-wing, right-wing, it’s all labels and meaningless. People are either good or bad.

          • John the Savage

            That is what is frightening about Netanyahu – his disturbing personal statements aside, the fact that he needs support from anti-Arab (and anti-foreign) fundamentalists is frightening. That said, for one thing a leftist like me will praise him, and that is his opening of the files of the “Yemenite children”. At least in this episode Israel will be all the stronger for confronting its past.

            If the Hamas/PA conflict is Sunni v Shia then there is no hope of a resolution any time soon. But it isn’t. As I said on my post which remains “pending” by this site, Hamas are not going to go away by wishing them to, so any possible peace arrangement must factor them in. Whether “the Left” blame Israel or not is irrelevant. If Israel won’t do their bit, the Left will blame Israel and will have good reason to do so.

            You say left-wing ideals are unattainable. But socially the left have clearly won, by forcing the dominant right to accept their beliefs. Tolerance, democracy, and freedom of speech, human rights, universal suffrage, etc., all leftist ideals which have become reality. And soon, leftist economic ideals will follow as well.

          • Mike Abramov

            in many ways, I see your postings as typical of the idealism I have heard all my life from the left-wing. I am old enough now to cite history and guide you, if I may, to the realities of left-wing countries and states.

            To be a humanitarian, as I am, is the ideal state of mind. Being left-wing has had the following consequences:

            USSR. 1917 to 1990. 30,000,000 murdered, starved to death or beaten to death in the Gulags. Stalin was a mass murderer posing as Uncle Joe.

            China 1925 to the present. Countless millions imprisoned and killed by the Maoist regime including the ‘theft’ of Tibet. Let us not forget Tiananmem Sq.

            Cuba 1958 to the present. Thousands murdered because they were against Castro. The country sunk in to poverty for years while Castro and his family lived in luxury on a hilltop. Lately, tourism has brought much needed dollars to the country.

            N. Korea 1945 to now. Queues for bread and other essentials have been a feature of the Kim dynasty. thousands have fled…thousands have died.trying to flee.

            Chile 1952-1973. Salvador Allende ran the country on a nationalisation basis and by the 1970s, the inflation rate was running at 20% pa. Allende was a lovely man, but had no idea abut running a country.

            Venezuela 1999-2013. Hugo Chavez was a funny man who managed to bankrupt Venezuela even though they had a huge supply of oil to give the world. He simply enforced a law that 1 litre of petrol should never be more than one cent. After he died, the Venezuelans were making clandestine visits to Colombia to smuggle in goods the government could not pay for.

            Yugoslavia 1943-1980. Josip Tito is the only communist leader I have ever had any respect for. To understand the former Yugoslavia, you need to go back over 1,000 years. The Croats, The Serbs and the other Slavs had been at each other’s throats for years and what brought this to an end was WW2. Croatia sided with the Nazis. Thousands of Serbs were butchered worked to death and starved to death. The Croats even had their own SS, the Stachi.

            When Tito took power after WW2, he united the warring tribes under one banner as Yugoslavia or ‘United Slavs’. He managed to keep Stalin out and carried on in a liberal form of communism until his death in 1980. However, the economy was poor. The Dinar was just paper money and the country produced very little in the way of exports. Even though his death was in 1980, it was not until 1992, when the civil war started, that people all over the world realised what a stable element he was to the people.

            In 1992, the Serbs decided to have their retribution and went on a murdering spree machine gunning entire villages of Croats….memories of WW2…to settle the score.

            Conclusion. In many ways, we have both agreed that Israel’s presence has united many Arab factions. If Israel suddenly disappeared, the in-fighting would result in many executions of those Arabs who supported the Jewish state. Your support for the ‘underdog’ which is one of the ideals of left-wing thinking, will be meaningless because the Arabs will revert to their tribalism just like the Slavs after Tito’s death.

            Tito should be your inspiration.

          • John the Savage

            Being right-wing, IN EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES, has even worse consequences. I will only mention Nazi Germany, but my point is that being left-wing does not exonerate a corrupt and evil dictatorship. Not all leftists self-identify as communists either (for good reason), so we don’t have use Tito’s model either.

            The problem with Israel is that unless you count the almost unanimous agreement by the Arabs states that it should not be there, it has only unified those Arab countries who see Iran (or Qatar, or even ISIS) as a personal threat. When that situation will change – and it will – Israel will be as isolated as before. Mind you, tribalism was good for the Arabs, it was the Western powers (including Turkey) which created unworkable realities in the Middle East.

          • Helen4Yemen

            The unworkable reality is that the West tried to solve its Jewish Question by transferring snow-white Europeans to an Arab land. If Europe could no live in peace with its own Jews, what obligation do the Arabs have to deal with a bunch of foreign Jews?

            You seem to be so confused that you do not even know that
            ISIS = Sunni
            Iran = Shia
            The most determined force to deal with ISIS are Iranians since ISIS poses the greatest threat to them.

          • Mike Abramov

            John – Maybe you have missed my point. Even if you look back at Labour governments in Britain, you will notice that the highest levels of inflation and balance of payments has been with a Labour government.

            Being left-wing is an ideal, not a reality. By providing left-wing support for the Palestinians actually implies that you are endorsing their nationalist cause, which is right-wing.

            I am a humanitarian and therefore have no political affinity except for the Jewish people to have a right to live in the the Jewish homeland.

            Here is some food for thought. Your ancestors probably came to England in the late 19th or early 20th century. Why did they come to England? The answer probably is because where they came from they were being sabered to death by Cossaks or, beaten to death by Polish thugs or, because the Nazis had arrived in Austria. England was a good choice because England is Protestant.

            Oliver Cromwell permitted Jews fleeing from Catholic persecution in Spain to live here. Had it not been for Cromwell, your ancestors would have had nowhere to flee to and we would not
            be having this conversation.

            I come to your final point. The Arabs are just as anti-Semitic as the Catholic Church. Do you honestly think that this is all about land? No. It is about not having Jews in the ME, plain and simple.

            You may call yourself English first, as the German Jews considered themselves German first but I guarantee that your loyalty will amount to nothing if England got rid of it’s Jews again as they did in 1290

          • John the Savage

            Mike – austerity doesn’t work. It has plunged the country deeper into debt, it has killed people, and guarantees no better future for anyone. We don’t have the luxury of electing a neo-liberal (as all supposed left-wing and right-wing governments have been since Attlee) government any more.

            Which brings me to precisely the point about the Palestinians. If we can’t force them to abandon their own hopes for “national self-determination” (c.f. Chief Rabbi Mirvis’ justification for Zionism) at least we can make sure that Israel does the right thing, acts in a humanitarian manner and obeys international law, as everybody is expected to.

            That Jews should be able to LIVE everywhere, particularly in our ancestral homeland, is the point people like Helen4Yemen do not get. Hopefully people like her are in Yemen, and in time, regular people will understand that ethnicity should not determine citizenship rights.

            It is very far-fetched IMO to say even with the gradual spread of universal (leftist) values like tolerance and human rights Jews could not live in most of the world as Jews. Sooner or later, if not in a “mass immigration” scenario Jews could absorbed in different countries around the world, as as happened today. If hypothetically England got rid of its Jews (and let’s be real, the further right-wing the government and official policy and pandering swings the more likely such elements as Britain First and the EDL will be strengthened and join the mainstream) right now we could probably go back to Poland and Lithuania. But even if not, as we don’t want to be shafted from pillar to post time and time again, fear of anti-Semitism must not force us to defend the indefensible.

          • Mike Abramov

            Incredible – I used to think like you.

            When i was about 19, I attended the local Young Socialists meeting in defense of Angela Davies.Google her. At Q&A, I raised the question about the Jews of the Soviet Union. I was told in no uncertain terms that they were not there to discuss that. So, what we have is a rule for one and a rule for another.

            As for austerity, this country does not have a bottomless pit of money. As in my previous reply, left-wing politics put people firs and money second which is why left-wing governments end up with huge cash-flow problems.

            Israel may be at fault, but Israel is NOT entirely to blame. I know the Arabs, like any nationality, they have their nuances. Think about this John.

            Have you noticed that the demands taken to the negotiating table by Abbas are way in excess of what is negotiable? if Abbas gets a deal, he is out of a job.

            As for the rest of the world, the reason why the world is so anti-Jewish is because Jews keep themselves to themselves. The Arab nations murdered hundreds of Jews from 1941 when they learned that there may well be a Jewish homeland….why?

          • John the Savage

            I’m not sure of your point about the Young Socialists and Angela Davies.

            Of course, I didn’t advocate a left-wing government, but a Socialist one governed by the economic programme of Karl Polyani and Joseph Steiglitz, among others.

            And I thought I made it clear that it is a major problem to think in terms of “the Arabs” “the Jews” or in a pejorative term, “the world” as in “all those anti-Semitic Goyim who hate The Only Jewish State (TM)”. So why did anti-Semitic pogroms break out in the 1940’s? There are many reasons (not justifications!), among which is the inevitable western intervention which would result from a Westernized state in the ME. But it would appear, for those thousands of victims, the Jewish state was not a saviour.

          • Mike Abramov

            ‘I’m not sure of your point about the Young Socialists and Angela Davies’.

            Angela Davies was sent to prison as an anti-Vietnam war protester. Jews who had applied for exit visas to Israel from the USSR, had lost their jobs and in many cases had been sent to Siberian prison camps….the Young Socialists weren’t interested in that.

            Socialist economics is a theory. Share and share alike etc; What happens in reality is that the few in power live in extraordinary luxury and the ‘people’ end up with ‘so so’ salaries. Read;

            George Orwell’s Animal Farm. It’s a great read and proves that nothing has changed.

            Jeremy Corbyn came from a wealthy family. He now lives in a town house in Islington worth over £2,000,000 and does not consider himself ‘rich’. This kind of skewed perspective baffles me.

            The ‘reason’ cited for the unrest among the Arab nations that Western influence is not welcome is pure hypocrisy. The west has been remarkably tolerant towards the needs of the Muslims and Arabs in the west. In the 1970s, Saudis came to London with pockets bulging. They removed their Arab garb, put on a suit, and then gamboled and drank their way through their stay..as well as enjoying a few western women. Their wives often went shopping in Harrods and M&S…forgetting to pay on the way out…but were restricted to wearing their hijabs.

            John – I need to impress upon you that this is all about Arab pride. The Palestinians have declined over 6 offers to find a settlement because they want it all back….even though they lost the wars. I grew up in an area full of Jews, Indians, West Indians, Irish and Middle Easterners. The Jews from Yemen were vastly different to the Jews from Europe. The Yemenites grew up in Arab lands and had Arab ways. I know they like to spoil for a fight.

            Finally, my question to you.

            ‘Does Israel have a right to exist’?

          • John the Savage

            Mike, modern socialists do not cover for the wrongs of the USSR. We battle against the fatally-wrong economic theories of globalization and free market liberalism. We also have no truck with the middle-class oh-it’s-so-terrible-what-is-happening-to-those-poor-people-in-that-building-please-pass-the-caviar-and-hummus-Geraldine armchair socialism, which is easily shed once the inheritance kicks in. Your economics might be 100% correct (they aren’t) but like it or not, the many will have something to say when the sh*t hits the fan, as at Grenfell.

            The deference given to the wealthy Arabs (and Russians after the collapse of socialism there) is symptomatic of the West’s approach to conflict. And then they wonder why the masses dislike their rulers and their Western-imposed “solutions”. Abbas is now seen by Palestinians and pro-Palestinians as being too much on the enemy’s side, as well as totally corrupt. The Arab leadership, like ours, have let their people down – for the same reasons.

            Arab fundamentalism may be one ideology taken up by the masses to assert themselves in response. That has always been the approach in history. Some of the disaffected proletariat will turn to communism, some will turn to fascism. Neither, of course, will change anything. But don’t discount the effect of Jewish fundamentalism on the Peace Process. For different reasons, people will justify whatever Israel does because of “the only Jewish state” and “There’s no such thing as Palestinians”. These people have the ear of the world’s leading governments (naturally).

            Does Israel have a right to exist? It exists, like the UK, Australia, Brazil, Afghanistan, Albania, and everything else in the atlas. Once we question countries right to exist we must question everybody’s founding narratives. Does Syria have a right to exist, divided as it is between various religious and cultural factions? Nigeria? Kurdistan? Scotland? To me Nationalism is an artificial concept, and best left to those for whom it is real.

          • Helen4Yemen

            All the people you mentioned are indigenous to their region, the Ashkenazi is 100% foreign, as foreign as the French in Algeria. He is 100% of European origin and he is simply a colonial settler.

            Jabotinksy:

            My readers have a general idea of the history of colonization in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonization being carried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent. The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. And it made no difference whatever whether the colonists behaved decently or not.

            There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. … it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting Palestine from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.

            We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached.

          • Helen4Yemen

            “Arab fundamentalism”

            Did you mean to say Muslim fundamentalism? The Arabs are Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists …

          • Helen4Yemen

            Did they try to go to Brazil, Argentina, South Africa, Madagascar, Kenya, Cyprus? They did not! They wanted either America or Palestine.
            ….
            David Ben-Gurion

            ” If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel. ”

            Chaim Weizmann (1942):

            “Palestine alone could absorb and provide for the homeless and the stateless Jews uprooted by the war. It is canalized all the sympathy of the world for the martyrdom of the Jews that the Zionists reject all schemes to resettle these victims elsewhere– in Germany, or Poland, or in sparsely populated regions such as Madagascar.”

          • Helen4Yemen

            What proof do you have that the Ashkenazi, which makes up 95% of world Jewry, has any ancestral ties to Palestine?

            Alan Dershowitz:
            99.9% European (Poland, Hungary …)
            0.0% Middle Eastern

            Bill Oreilly
            99.8% European(Britain, Ireland …)
            0.0% Middle Eastern

            Why is Palestine the ancestral land of Dershowitz and not of O’reilly since they are both equally European?

          • Helen4Yemen

            Palestinian envoy to the UNHRC suggests that Jews should return to their countries of origin.
            Here is the transcript:
            “A few days ago, Barack Obama said: “We are all Jews.” But we as Palestinians say: We are Jews, we are Christians and we are Muslims, So Obama did not invent anything new. Our problem is that the Jews came to Palestine from outside the region, colonized it, and established their own state. If they still hold any belief in the notion of the a Promised Land, I believe that everybody knows that all the historical stories about the exodus and about how they left Egypt for Palestine, which they cal the “Promised Land”. If this “Promised Land” within Israel is not large enough for them, and they have begun to take over our lands in the West Bank, with their settlements, I believe that President Putin’s message is very important. He declared – above two weeks ago, I believe, that Russia was ready to accept back all the Russian Jews who are suffering throughout Europe.Therefore, if they continue on this track it may be useful to consider asking many countries, Arab countries, European countries, and other foreign countries to allow the Jews to return to their former lands and homes, whether they are Iraqi, Yemeni, Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian,Lebanese, or Syrian. Then we, the Palestinians, will return to be the way we were – Jews, Christians and Muslims. We never had people from Poland,, the Ukraine, Switzerland, France or England”

            http://www*jpost*com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Senior-Palestinian-official-calls-on-Jews-to-return-to-country-of-origin-445057

          • Helen4Yemen

            Palestinians are 100% Sunni. Where do you get such a crazy idea that there are Shia in Palestine?

            http://www*pewforum*org/files/2009/10/Shiarange*pdf

            Repalce * with .

          • Helen4Yemen

            “Unless Hamas and the PA agree to drop their differences (Sunni -v- Shia) the intransigence will continue and i will tell you why.”
            …………
            All Palestinians are Sunni. Where, may I ask, are you getting this nonsense? Got source?

            http://www*pewforum*org/files/2009/10/Shiarange*pdf

            Replace * with .

          • Helen4Yemen

            “Israel does not have a death penalty. I believe this is to be the only ME country that has no capital punishment. ”

            Please do not use my identity as a Middle Easterner as the identity of Europeans predators on Arab land? Were the French in Algeria also considered to be part of the Middle East?

            Alan Dershowitz DNA
            99.9% European
            0.1% East Asian
            0.0% Middle Eastern

          • Helen4Yemen

            ” However, this has meant that many Palestinians have behaved, in the name of freedom- fighters, horrendously. ”

            You have the goddamned audacity as as leeching foreign insert to be speaking of the Palestinians in such language?

          • Helen4Yemen

            “To suffer tear gas used by Israel or, to have your guts machetted by an angry Arab?”

            Why not let the Arabs live their lives and let the leeches go home?

            Alan Dershowitz DNA
            99.9% European
            0.1% East Asian
            0.0% Middle Eastern

          • Helen4Yemen

            “This is what Israel has to manage because the Arabs do not want a Jewish state in the ME….pure and simple.”

            Nor would the Kenyans or Nigerians or Venezuelans or Algerians.
            Who accepts stamping foreign leeches on their land?

            And the reason why a totally European people are on that land?

            Alan Dershowitz DNA
            99.9% European
            0.1% East Asian
            0.0% Middle Eastern

          • Helen4Yemen

            You can have your state but on the land where 99.9% of your ancestry is from: Europe!

            Alan Dershowitz DNA
            99.9% European
            0.1% East Asian
            0.0% Middle Eastern

          • Helen4Yemen

            “Obviously in the case when Israel is overwhelmingly in the right, to the point that bloodshed is necessary, I would like to think I would fight for what is right.”

            “Israel” is occupied by foreign people who seized Arab land by force.
            How can a people living on stolen land against the wishes of the native
            population ever be “right”?

          • Helen4Yemen

            I can prove to you that I do not care who the colonizers
            of Palestine are, I will hate them equally. But it is so weird
            for white Ashkenazi Europeans to claim to be “returning”.
            I do not wake everyday thinking about the Kenyans or
            Thai or the Japanese people but I do think about the Jews
            as the occupiers of Palestine. That is the only difference.
            Remember: what they call ‘antisemitism’ is totally a
            European phenomenon.

          • Helen4Yemen

            “Do you want to see an end to the only TRUE democracy in the ME? ”

            This only “democracy” forcefully sterilizes black Jews to eliminate black Jews from the world.

          • Helen4Yemen

            ” To the non-Jew, you are a Jew first and English second.”

            To the non-Jew, you are a Jew first … period!

          • Helen4Yemen

            Bio: Maurice Samuel (February 8, 1895 – May 4, 1972) was a Romanian-born British and American novelist, translator and lecturer. A Jewish and Zionist intellectual, he is best known for his work You Gentiles, published in 1924. Most of his work concerns Judaism or the Jew’s role in history and modern society .(Source: Wikipedia)

            1- Years of observation and thought have given increasing strength to the belief that we Jews stand apart from you gentiles, that a primal duality breaks the humanity I know into two distinct parts; that this duality is a fundamental, and that all differences among you gentiles are trivialities compared with that which divides all of you from us.

            2- I do not believe that this primal difference between gentile and Jew is reconciliable. You and we may come to an understanding, never to a reconciliation. There will be irritation between us as long as we are in intimate contact. For nature and constitution and vision divide us from all of you forever

            3- You gentiles are essentially polytheists and to some extent idol worshippers. We Jews are essentially monotheists.We Jews are incapable of polytheism. You gentiles are incapable of monotheism

            4- In the heart of any pious Jew, God is a Jew. Is your God an Englishman or an American? There is no real contradiction between this confessed anthropomorphism and my claim that we Jews alone understand and feel the universality of God.

            5- I believe that the preferences and aversions which I here express will at least serve to make clear the irreconcilable difference between Jewish and gentile morality.

            6- You have your way of life, we ours. In your system of life we are essentially without “honor.” In our system of life you are essentially without morality. In your system of life we must forever appear graceless; to us .you must forever appear Godless.

            7- We belong to the One mastering God: you belong to the republic of playful gods.

            8- Hence it is that you have never, in these many centuries of Christianity, produced utterances like those of the prophets, of job and of David. Your inspirations come from other sources, not from the one source. Your gods are essentially gods of the world, not of the universe. The universal aspect of divinity, its attributes of infinity and eternity, its omnipotence-these find only your formal acknowledgment: but emotionally you are unfitted to give them the true acknowledgment of complete and almost incoherent abasement

            9- I might say that there is no Jew who does not believe in God . The free-thinking Jews, the agnostic or atheistic Jew like myself, simply does not anthropomorphize him. In his religious emotions the atheist Jew is as different from the atheist gentile as the confessing Jew from the confessing gentile-Christian.

          • Helen4Yemen

            Are you saying you will fight alongside the British if there were a war against the foreign leeches in Palestine?

            1- Jews are more loyal to Israel than to [this country they live in] – 41%

            2- Jews have too much power in the business world – 35%

            3- Jews have too much power in international financial markets – 34%

            4- Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust – 30%

            5- Jews don’t care what happens to anyone but their own kind – 34%

            6- Jews have too much control over global affairs – 29%

            7- Jews have too much control over the United States government – 25%

            8- Jews think they are better than other people – 34%

            9- Jews have too much control over the global media – 25%

            10- Jews are responsible for most of the world’s wars – 23%

            11 – People hate – Jews because of the way Jews behave – 32%

            http://global100*adl*org/

            replace * with .

          • Helen4Yemen

            1) “The revised book is a double-edged sword. It is based on many documents that were not available to me when I wrote the original book, most of them from the Israel Defense Forces Archives. What the new material shows is that there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought. To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape. In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah [the pre-state defense force that was the precursor of the IDF] were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them and destroy the villages themselves.
            2) In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg.”
            3) In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field – they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village – she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.
            4) “The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.
            5) “That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.”
            6) One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948].”
            7) “From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created.”
            8) “Of course Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist.”
            9) “Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here.”
            10) That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads.

          • Mike Abramov

            Idiot – all is fair in love and war….and we won’t talk about how the Arabs targeted pregnant Jewish women and deliberately aimed at slashing their wombs open….will we.

          • Helen4Yemen

            When a burglar is already inside your home, you have to do anything possible to remove that burglar? Why was the white man on that land?

          • Mike Abramov

            Yawn!

          • Helen4Yemen

            Not a foreigner?

            Rabbi Hammerman DNA
            97.2% Ashkenazi
            0.8% East European
            0.2% Southern European
            1.7% Broadly European
            0.1% Native American
            99.9% European
            0.0% Middle Eastern

          • Mike Abramov

            Yawn

          • Helen4Yemen

            What can you possibly say?
            Can you deny that Ashkenazi = 0% Middle East ancestry?
            TRY?

          • Helen4Yemen

            Why is this “Israel” on Arab land is the question?

            Neil Gaiman:

            “According to 23andme, genetically I am
            99.6% Ashkenazi,
            0.3% unspecified European,
            0.1% East Asian. ”
            Total European = 99.9%
            Total Middle East = 0.0%
            https://twitter*com/neilhimself/status/278035051210498048

          • Helen4Yemen

            “By have the Israeli military in the West Bank has meant that Hezbollah and ISIS do not dare to attack Israel”

            Israel ‘giving secret aid to Syrian rebels’, report says

            http://www*independent*co*uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-giving-secret-aid-syrian-rebels-bashar-al-assad-golah-heights-hezbollah-fursan-al-joulan-a7797151*html

          • Helen4Yemen

            You are so certifiably so ignorant. it is simply hard to understand that people like you even exist on the planet with such poor reasoning and logic.

            a) How do you think anyone could kill only Jews without also killing Palestinians?

            b) Who would want to risk nuclear annihilation by the Mileikowsky’s of Lithuania by starting a nuclear war?

            c) Why was it the concern of Husseini how the snow-white Jews were dealt with by other snow white Europeans? Husseini did not appreciate the flooding of his country by these snow-white Europeans?

          • Helen4Yemen

            David Ben-Gurion : We must expel Arabs and take their places.

            Golda Meir : I, too, would want the Arabs out of the country, and my conscience would be absolutely clear.

          • Helen4Yemen

            RUSSIA TOO WANTED RUSSIA ‘Judernfrei’.

            What have the Arabs got to do with European Jewry?

            Russia was in favor of Zionism because it wanted
            the Russian Jews gone. Here are the 4 times where
            that desire is expressed in this announcement:

            – if emigration decreased their number
            – if emigration diminishes their number
            – decrease the Jewish population of Russia
            – to diminish the Jewish population in Russia

            RUSSIA FAVORS ZION MOVEMENT
            New York Times
            Published: August 26, 1903

            Russia Gives Official Encouragement to the Jewish Project.

            Minister De Plehve’s letter to the congress in Session at Basel, Switzerland.

            BASEL. Switzerland. Aug. 25, 1903

            At today’s session of’the Zionist Congress, Dr. Herzl, the President, submitted to the delegates a letter which he had received from the Russian Minister of the Interior, de Plehve, apparently pledging the support of the Russian Government to the Zionists in their movement to establish an independent state in Palestine. The Minister, in the letter referred to, said his Government was quite favorable to the original program of Zionism, which can rely on its moral and material support when its practical measures tend to decrease the Jewish population of Russia. Such support might take the form of supporting the Zionist demands on the Ottoman Government and helping the Jewish emigration societies by cooperating with the Jews who are contributing to the necessities of these societies.

            The Russian Government, the Minister adds, has been obliged to act toward the Jewish question as the interests of the State require, but it has never deviated from the great principles of morality and humanity. It had recently enlarged the rights of residence in the Jewish region, and he hoped nothing would prevent the development of such measures tending to improve the conditions of the existence of the Russian Jews, especially if emigration decreased their number.

            The discussion by the congress of Great Britain’s offer of an African settlement to Jewish immigrants promises to be prolonged. The Russian delegates opposed the project, while the German, English and Italian delegates urge the apportionment of a committee of investigation. Judge Sulzberger of Philadelphia spoke today in favor of the scheme. It is believed that Dr. Herzl is in favor of the British proposal, and his views are likely to influence the final decision.

            The Jewish Dally News of this city has received the following dispatch from Jacob De Haas, Secretary of the American Federation of Zionists, who is attending the Zionist Congress now in session at Basel, Switzerland:

            “During a discussion regarding Dr.Herzl’s statement that the Russian Government would hereafter lighten the burden of the Jews and favor Zionism and would allow it to be propagated in Russia, Prof. Richard Gottheil, President of the American Federation of Zionists, questioned Dr. Herzl in regard to his authority for making such a statement, and asked for some documentary proof of the accuracy of his information. The interpellation of Prof. Gattheil was seconded today by Cyrus Sulzberger, Treasure of the United Hebrew Charities of New York City, who insisted on the importance of the interviews which Dr. Helzl had recently at St. Petersburg with a number of prominent Russian officials and asked whether the assurances which he had received were verbal or written. Dr. Herzl, in reply, presented the following communication from Minister
            Plehve to the Zionist Congress:

            “You have expressed the desire to retain proof of your interview with me. I agree to this willingly in order to avoid all which might arouse exaggerated hopes or doubts and anxiety. I have had the occasion to make known to you the point of view from which the Russian Government at the present moment regards Zionism. This point of view could very easily inspire it with the necessity of exchanging its policy of tolerance for measures dictated by its safeguarding of national interests . So long as Zionism consisted in the desire to create an independent State in Palestine and promised to organize the emigration in Russia of a certain number of Its Jewish subjects, the Russian Government could very well be favorable to it. But from the moment that this principal object of Zionism is abandoned in order to be replaced by a simple propaganda of the national concentration of the Jews in Russia, it is natural that the Government cannot in any case tolerate this new departure of Zionism. It would not have any other result than to create groups of individuals, perfect strangers to and even hostile to the patriotic sentiments which constitute the strength of each State.

            This is why faith could not be placed in Zionism but on the condition that it return to its old program of action. It could in that case count upon moral and material support for certain of its practical measures, which would serve to diminish the Jewish population in Russia. This support might consist in protecting the mandatories of the Zionists to the Ottoman Government and in facilitating the work of the emigration societies, and even in assisting these societies evidently outside the resources of the State, by means of contributions levied on the Jews.

            I think It necessary to add that the Russian Government is obliged to conform its manner of acting toward the Jewish question to the interests of the State, but it has nevertheless never deviated from its great moral principles and the interests of humanity. Quite recently, besides, it has enlarged the rights of residence in the confines of the localities set apart for the Jewish population and nothing prevents the hope that the development of these measures will serve to ameliorate the conditions of existence of the Russian Jews, especially if emigration diminishes their number.

            Mr. Sulzberger prefaced his remarks to the Congress by referring to President Roosevelt’s splendid action in voicing the respectful demands of the Jewish people of the United States.

            Prof. Max Nordau yesterday delivered a magnificent address and received a great ovation. He advocated the acceptance of the offer of the British Government to provide land for the establishment of a Jewish colony in East Africa and it is believed the Executive Committee will accept the offer.

            The following dispatch was received last evening by Jacob Saphirstein from Dr. Henru Bluestone of 224 Henry Street, who is a United Zionist delegate to the congress at Basel:

            “The United Zionists have been victorious after a hard fight and the Federationists are pleading for peace. Cyrus Sulzberger, Francis Montefiore, and Col. Goldsmith of New York are among the delegates. Russia has promised to support the movement. The British Government has offered autonomy to the Jews in the colonies of East Africa. A commission has been appointed to attend to the matter.”

          • Mike Abramov

            YAWN!

          • Helen4Yemen

            Zionism succeeded because the Christian West welcomed it
            as the Final Solution and we the people of the region resent
            two European foreigners using our land to solve their age-old
            conflict. The Jews of Europe should have been given land in
            Europe and that would have been their right. The reason the
            conflict will never end is because no Palestinian will accept
            these Europeans that were inserted on their land against their
            wishes and by force.

          • Helen4Yemen

            “I believe that Israel is not a safe haven for Jews, and the
            problems caused from the initial founding of the Zionist
            movement can not be resolved.”

            Exactly! The Arabs did remove the French, the British, the Italians,
            the Crusaders from their land. Eventually, they will also remove this
            last of European colonizers. It has nothing to do with their religion
            or race. It is about colonialism and these Europeans arrived when
            the world was getting decolonized.

        • Helen4Yemen

          “there will follow a civil war between the Sunni Hamas and Shia PA”

          Why do you want to tell the readers that you are such an informed hasbara troll? The Palestinians are all Sunni. There are no Shia in Palestine.

          http://www*pewforum*org/files/2009/10/Shiarange*pdf

          Repalce * with .

          • Mike Abramov

            However, Hezbollah are backed by Iran and would support the PA?

          • Helen4Yemen

            Did you look at the link? There are no Shia Palestinians – none!
            Iran always supports the Palestinian cause. Sometimes
            the Saudi Monarchy tries to distance all Palestinians groups
            from Iran.

            http://www*pewforum*org/files/2009/10/Shiarange*pdf

          • Mike Abramov

            Thank you. The link was helpful. So why are Sunnis fighting Sunnis?

          • Helen4Yemen

            Who are you referring to?

          • Helen4Yemen

            deleted

          • Mike Abramov

            Gaza are Sunni. The PA are Sunnii. Why are they at each other’s throats?

          • Helen4Yemen

            “Abbas’s Fatah movement supports a Palestinian state alongside Israel, while Hamas rejects Israel’s right to exist. Their disagreements lead to violence on the streets of Gaza.”

            http://www*aljazeera*com/news/middleeast/2011/05/2011549435141647*html

          • Mike Abramov

            I know, and have known this for years…..from the river to the sea….is their chant supported by the PSC all over the world. In many ways, the situation of the Jews in Israel is the same as the Kurds and Kurdistan. The Kurds are Israel’s only true allies in the ME.

          • Helen4Yemen

            The Kurds are native to their lands. Snow-white Ashkenazi who makes up 95% of world Jewry is totally European, you should have compared the Ashkenazi in Palestine to the French in Algeria or the British in Kenya.


            Alex Feinberg
            “Finally got my 23andme results:
            Ashkenazi – 93.6%
            Nonspecific European – 6%
            Southern European = 0.2%
            Unassigned – 0.2% ”
            https://twitter*com/strlen/status/287354859345281024

            Neil Gaiman:
            “According to 23andme, genetically I am
            99.6% Ashkenazi,
            0.3% unspecified European,
            0.1% East Asian. ”
            Total European = 99.9%
            Total Middle East = 0.0%
            https://twitter*com/neilhimself/status/278035051210498048

            Replace * with .

          • Mike Abramov

            Helen – go to the bottom of the class.

            In previous lessons, I have explained to you that the Ashkenazi Jew is still a Jew and therefor descended from Abraham. Ashkenazi means from that part of NE Germany.

            Therefore, the Ashkenazi Jew is equally entitled to call Israel his home. Now, if you still fail to understand that, do your own research and prove me wrong.